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Old August 27, 2010, 23:40   #1
BrokenSailor
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Question Buying Izzy FAL need advice?

Hi,
New to this forum, but never had an FAL before. I have a few questions. Sorry for the long post.

$1745 for the weapon/ 1 mag. I have already been told this is to much to pay, but lets not dwell too much on that. I want to know about the quality I am buying. I have a deposit on it now. I was told that this is exactly as is from Israel with the selector switch modified. The tab on it was cut off I was told. He would not speak much more about this, other than that I should not replace it.

This salesman does know me well. He does know the owner selling this well also. I spend a lot of money there. Keep in mind I live in NY.

It has a Bakelite black pistol grip. All the wood is in VG condition with some service wear. Heavy Barrel, Bi-pod, Flash, Bolt roller on op rod, Squad handle, black magazine with notch on the upper right.

The three positions are in Hebrew on the receiver and the switch rotates to all of them, but does not allow full auto to engage since the tab is cut off. What else should I look at for mods inside to make sure it is legal? Does this make sense to you? Have you ever seen a Hebrew marked receiver?

This particular guy at the gun shop is a FAL guy by his own admission and is very familiar with old FALs having owned some.

It is marked IMBEL Fabrica del ITAJUBK Brasil and under that Enterprise Arms, California. It was imported before any firearm rules on FNs or FA conversions were put in place I was told. (Pre Bush 1 I guess) I was told it was all Israeli original except the auto switch modification inside. The serial is IBXXX.

It is marked FZ SA 7.62 mm. I was told the SA stood for South Africa. ?
This is where the receiver was made, I was told. The receiver also has UBA 5403 as a part number on it on the other side. VG condition over all. The weapon is clean and no rust anywhere.

One question is, do I have to comply with 922R? as far as the number of parts that must be US or is this weapon exempt from this because it was imported previous to foreign weapon import laws? I was told this weapon was in the country before the G-Series.

I have heard that any FA weapon that was imported and converted to SA is still considered a FA weapon by ABCs. Any truth to this? I want to be on the right side of the fence on this. I do not want to be on the range in NY with a weapon that has a selector switch if it is not 100% straight up. Everything I own is NY legal where we still have the assault weapons ban.

It makes this piece even more valuable to me. From a quality perspective on parts (and my short research period), it does not seem like I could buy a better FAL, but you tell me. It may have some collector value, but I shoot all my weapons, a lot.

Can you give me some head space stats, etc. that I can check out before purchase?

Thanks in advance.
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Old August 28, 2010, 01:41   #2
L/FN
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Springfield Armory USA built Israeli HB's on Imbel receivers. Preban called SAR-48 HB.
Armscorp and Onyx Arms are others who imported or built preban Israeli HB's.

I would contact Entreprise Arms w/the receiver ser# and see if the imported any Imbel receivers pre 90.

The Imbel receiver is Brazilian. Most likely the balance of the rifle is Israeli. Israeli parts used to be very available.
I guarantee the receiver and most likely any parts on the rifle are not S. Africa origin.

A SAR48 HB preban can bring $1,500 - 2,000.00.

I saw a postban kit build sell for over $2,000.00 immediately after Obama.

A preban HB built on a Israeli semi receiver will command most $$. That's upper receiver, not lower (trigger group) half.
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Old August 28, 2010, 02:19   #3
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Thats a kit build. The guy is giving you a line, there are no special regulations about using FA parts, the semi-auto receiver (which your Imbel is, IIRC the SA stands for semi-auto, not "South Africa", Imbels were made in Brazil) cannot mount an auto-sear. The "always a automatic" rule applies only to the receiver of the rifle, so you're more than clear there. The selector switch does not make the rifle an automatic, most members here have full auto selectors on their rifles. I'm curious what you mean about the tab being cut off, because there is no tab that I know of. The selector blocks the trigger on safe, and has notches to allow the trigger to be pulled from the fire positions. On automatic fire the trigger moves far enough back (further than on semi) to disengage the sear from the hammer, which in a FA rifle will be held back by the auto-sear until the bolt locks, when the hammer drops again. In a semi-auto rifle without an auto-sear, the hammer just rides the bolt carrier forward in this position without enough force to pop the primer. Some people weld up the full auto notch, effectively making it another "safe" position, which is what it sounds like has been done here.

The fact that it has Entreprise stamped on it suggests it was built by Entreprise (IIRC they didn't import any Imbel receivers, though don't quote me on that). No stripped Imbel receivers were imported prior to the 89 ban, so that rifle needs to be compliant with 922r. If its an Entreprise build it probably complies, because they have to cover their asses. No way in hell was that rifle in the country before the G-Series, those were imported before Imbel even set up shop.

Basically everything the dealer told you is bad information. Either he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about or he thinks he can pull one over on you. That rifle is a $1200-$1300 rifle these days, but seeing as it MAY be a pre 94-ban rifle (I would say there is a good chance someone built it in their basement during the ban, or brought it in from out of state), then it may be worth $1750 in NY.

As for buying a better FAL, I would say that the HB is a collectors gun. For a shooter it weighs way more than a standard rifle (which isn't a featherweight in itself), and offers no real advantages. From all accounts they aren't any more accurate. Still, a lot of people like due to the aesthetics and the fact that not nearly as many of them were produced as the standard version (of course, almost all of these people own the conventional FALs in addition to an HB). You very rarely see them actually on the firing line.
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Old August 28, 2010, 07:42   #4
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Depending upon where you are in NY, I'd be happy to look at it with you to give you some more information. I'm in Orange County.
Regards,
Joel

FYI, I have a similar receiver on one of my Izzy clones. I purchased the stripped receiver from Entreprise back in the early 2000's. Serial Number IBXXXX. Markings look like this. On the back side it is marked Fz SA 7.62 - C3A. I'd love to think it was something special, but it aint.



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Last edited by hydrotx; August 28, 2010 at 16:59.
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Old August 28, 2010, 09:59   #5
Mark IV
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Invest in a set of throat erosion and headspace gauges and check out the barrel. If the throat erosion is too high, you'll have a bargaining chip to bring the price down.

Some of the more knowledgeable guys on this site have mentioned that throat erosion isn't that big of a deal, and they're probably right; but those kinds of things worry me and, in my puny little mind, make the differenece between a barrel that is serviceable, and a barrel that is unserviceable and needs to be replaced.

Barrel condition, major consideration!

A new replacement Izzy barrel from DSA costs about $300, and another $75-$100 for a gunsmith to rebarrel and re-headspace.
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Old August 28, 2010, 10:33   #6
zacmp
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Quote:
Originally posted by zinj
As for buying a better FAL, I would say that the HB is a collectors gun. For a shooter it weighs way more than a standard rifle (which isn't a featherweight in itself), and offers no real advantages. From all accounts they aren't any more accurate. Still, a lot of people like due to the aesthetics and the fact that not nearly as many of them were produced as the standard version (of course, almost all of these people own the conventional FALs in addition to an HB). You very rarely see them actually on the firing line.
First and foremost, I'm no FAL builder or expert, so listen to everyone else! That being said, I enjoy an Izzy HB more than a standard FAL (start laughing know). There just plain old fun to shoot, quite comfy, look great, and I can tag the 500m steel all day every day with iron sights, yeah, there big targets, but I'll smack them around. IF I feel the need to drill paper in the moa range, I break out my Colt A2 with it's light weight, light ammo, great ergonomics and incredible accuracy (start laughing harder).

Soooo....while I'd listen AND follow the advice of the knowleged memebers that make up this group, I'd have an Izzy in my collection regardless of what else I own.

fyi...this izzy sees one of the Tucson ranges or shooting spots at least once a month since I've got it. I got it by trade, but the asking price was $1795 if I remember right. Happy to pay that then, would be happy to pay that again today.

ps...the tape on the foregaurd is to keep the bipod from scratching, and the reason you don't see ejection marks is that I tape that area too! Sorry, but the rifle was a true 98% when I got it (start laughing sooo damned hard it hurts!).

zacmp


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Old August 28, 2010, 23:20   #7
BrokenSailor
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Thanks everyone,
I do own all the head space and throat gauges for my M14s. I have a full set. I don't have the specs. I can pull the bolt to check the HS. The shop will let me. I am particularly concerned about the barrel so if anyone could point me to some specs that would be great. How can I get in touch with Enterprise? Website...? phone?

I am in Eastern LI, so I am not that close to Orange Co. but thanks, I would have really appreciated the help. My markings are a little different than the Brazilian pictured, but I get the major points here. As far as NY laws, they are the same laws basically that you used to live under when you had the Nat. assault weapons ban if you can relate...Remember what kind of FAL you could have then? Well, that is what we can have in NY.

I have five M14s and this would be my first FAL so I guess I will get my feet wet with this one. It seems to be older and not in as good a shape as those you have pictured. I will post pics.

Apparently just welding the FA switch gap is not going to be the only thing that keeps that from being FA and that I wanted to make sure. I was told that way back then, they didn't do that much to make the change. I will check for the sear, but given the SA marking it is all making sense know. I spent more time correcting the BS that I got at the store than I care for. Thanks for the reassurance.

I understand from some reading, that the more original parts from IMBEL the better and that I need a certain number of US parts that Enterprise should have put in there. I was hoping it was all IMBEL, but now understand more. I also understand about the manufacturing part, the uselessness of it, the enforceability, etc. There is a lot of nice info here. Thanks.
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Old August 29, 2010, 11:27   #8
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I would think you should be able to pick up another Israeli HB kit rifle elsewhere for more in the $1200 range.
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Old October 01, 2011, 17:18   #9
BrokenSailor
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I have been away a while, but due to your advice I did not purchase the Izzy, and due to my research they pulled the weapon. I am here today with a new FAL and questions. New Post.
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